Landscaping: Permatill? Good, Bad, Indifferent?

Replies: 28 Views: 131

Author	Comment
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 05, 2009 04:04 PM	I need your advice. Permatill was recommended for our clay soil, zone 7b, Charlotte area, a brand new yard. It's expensive, is it worth it? Should I use it in the planters, vegetable garden, and lawn? Thanks for your help,
Smokey_SC Piedmont, SC (Zone 7b) May 07, 2009 07:42 PM	What is Permatill? I'm just below Greenville, SC
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 08, 2009 01:31 PM	I understand Permatill to be a natural rock, fired to 2000 degrees and then crushed. It is added to the soil to help break up the clay. It also retains water and nutrients, keeping the clay from cracking during a drought. My hardscape contractor thinks it's nonsense. It makes some sense to me, but for the price, hummmmm.
Smokey_SC Piedmont, SC (Zone 7b) May 08, 2009 06:54 PM	Why not compost and peat moss? Tilled in of course. We have been in a terrible drought and my ground didn't crack. I watered what plants I could with my dish water because we could be fined or have our water bill doubled or tripled. I know what drought is.
ecrane3 Dublin, CA (Zone 9a) May 08, 2009 09:20 PM	Is the person who's recommending it someone who stands to profit if you purchase it? I'm with Smokey, adding some nice organic material is probably a better approach.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 09, 2009 07:02 AM	Yes, the person recommending it is the one selling it, as well as an independent contractor who buys from this supply company. They are recommending: the planter to be tilled, then retilled with a garden blend consisting of peat loam, compost and permatill. (The permatil being permanent. Wouldn't rock be considered organic?) I am to top it with a 2" layer of pine mulch. For the vegetable garden they are recommending mushroom compost and peat loam. My hardscape contractor says mushroom compost is nothing but decomposed hay. Is this true? Could I buy hay and let it rot in my side yard? Yikes! The soil amendments are eating my plant budget! But I want to get the soil right, then I'll plant slowly if I have to.
ecrane3 Dublin, CA (Zone 9a) May 09, 2009 10:19 AM	When I was saying organic in this case, I was thinking of material that would break down and decompose and contribute to the richness of your soil over time. The rocks are just going to sit there. Maybe they help break up the clay, but they won't work to improve your soil over time the way other amendments would. As far as the mushroom compost--there's more in it than just straw, but I don't know that it's any better than any other type of compost you could use, so if you're paying a lot more for it than you would for some other sort of compost then there's no reason to use that one in particular.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 09, 2009 10:27 AM	ecrane, Thanks for the help. The mushroom compost is a couple of dollars a yard more than the garden blend. Do you happen to have your own compost bin? I'd like to give it a try, I'm concerned the bin will attract critters. One site says I don't have to have three different bins. Just one is necessary.
ecrane3 Dublin, CA (Zone 9a) May 09, 2009 10:59 AM	No, I don't have a compost bin...no good place for it in my garden, plus since I work a lot and eat a lot of microwave meals I don't have enough kitchen scraps to really make an effective pile. If you do it right, it shouldn't attract too many critters--it's if you let it get too wet or don't have the right ratio of green/brown materials that it can get a smell to it and that's when you run the most risk of critters. As far as number of bins, all you need is one, but if you've got the space it can help to have a couple that are in varying stages of decomposition, that way you can have one that's almost ready for garden use and another that you're starting over again with fresh scraps. I see that you're a paid subscriber, so you might check out the Soil & Composting forum, you can learn a lot about composting over there. They might also have some thoughts on whether there really is something special about mushroom compost and may know about the Permatill too.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 09, 2009 11:07 AM	Thanks ecrane3! I'll try the Soil & Composting forum!!!
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 10, 2009 06:40 AM	ecrane3, you might want to give the microwave meals a break. Try cooking quick, fast and fresh from the garden with Thai cooking. It's one of the reasons I love to dabble in the garden. Nothing makes me happier than going outside to pick fresh basil, mint, cayenne peppers and lemongrass to put in my meal. Lettuce wraps, with thin slices of spicy beef, pork or chicken, yum. Once you get the hang of it, you can make a meal out of anything, quickly and in one bowl. Very little clean up. Look for Madhur Jafrey's cook books in 1/2 priced book stores, my favorite being The Ultimate Thai and Asian Cookbook. bon appetite
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC May 10, 2009 10:41 AM	Hi I am in 7b I do have a bit of woods and so for compost I just gather the leaves from around the house and let them sit and rot and use that to amend the soil. My biggest complaint about that is that it is a warm pile and the snakes love it...eeeeeech... I walk in with a wheelbarrow in front and 'charge' out backwards pulling that darn thing and tripping over everything in my backwards path trying to make my getaway! Unless your contractor cleared off all your topsoil (!!) you shouldn't assume that you don't have a good planting soil for your needs. If he did --call him and tell him to come dump a few loads for free!! (It can't hurt to ask..he can say no if he is so inclined.) It is true we deal with that clay here but it isn't all that bad if you have decent topsoil - I don't run into drainage problems and I have enough soil to plant. Over time as you plant your garden and add the dirt from pots or till in your leafy materials left over from growing your veggies etc., you ought to be ok. I'd skip the Permatill unless I knew I really really needed it (meaning tried to dig and to plant or saw water puddling with poor drainage.) I have used the mushroom compost but honestly don't know if it added any value -- I liked the idea of it. If you are planning to purchase mulch, topsoil, or compost --please call your local landfill...they make the most gorgeous fresh crumbly compost - you can get a huge amount for not a whole lot of money and they deliver and the fee isn't that much either. Ditto the mulch. (I have even purchased glass mulch from the landfill) Anyway...it is a way to save $$ and not end up with a lot of junk and trash in the material.
CarolynH Maspeth, NY May 10, 2009 11:51 AM	I lived in an area with clay soil, and organic stuff really helps. I have worked peat moss into the clay where I planted flowers and stuff. It helped. If you can get old manure, that is wonderful stuff!!! Clay gets better as you add stuff to it. Even Coffee grounds help, just work them in a bit. Good luck!
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 10, 2009 08:00 PM	Okay, tomorrow, I'll hit the coffee shop for their old grounds and the landfill for compost and mulch!! Thanks for the help. The Permatil still has my attention. We have some drainage problems. We are near the top of a hill. My neighbors yard pours water into ours. We LOVE our neighbors but can't figure out where all this water is coming from. Our contractor has put in drains, french drains and good contour drainage. But I'm still nervous. My Hubby went out to mark some lines with pipe driven into the ground and water seeped up immediately. I may give the Permatill a try. I wish someone had used it, or knew someone who had used it or thought they knew someone who had used it or if it was good, bad or indifferent!!!!! Right now, I think I'll order the Permatill. That eats into my plant budget, which really hurts. But in the long run it will be better for the plants! Oh the sacrifices and decisions that have to be made with a garden, cooking gives faster results and is much cheaper!!!!!
CarolynH Maspeth, NY May 10, 2009 08:48 PM	Sheet Composting looks easy and may be helpful! http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/datastore/detailreport.cfm?usernumbe...
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC May 10, 2009 10:33 PM	Even with the Permatill -- You will only be able to turn it into the existing soil just so much to help with the draining. It seems that it may take rounding up that water from your neighbor and redirecting it. It sounds like your contractor has done a lot of work, but are you sure that whatever was done was the proper solution? Anyway, here is hoping that the Permatill will work for you. You are not on a well and septic are you?
ecrane3 Dublin, CA (Zone 9a) May 10, 2009 11:07 PM	If even with the French drains and contour drainage you're still getting a lot of water coming from the uphill neighbors that's causing problems, I'd look for another engineering solution vs hoping that the Permatill will take care of the problem. You mentioned in your first post that this is a brand new yard...was this a new construction house? If so you may have some recourse with the builder to fix the drainage issues. You may have to fight them for it, but they should be responsible to fix it.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 11, 2009 08:46 AM	Yes it is new construction. The builder addressed the issue when we first moved in by knocking a brick out of or neighbors brick wall on their back side. This is not where the water is coming from. The builder is in trouble with this economy, they wouldn't even respond when we simply asked where we could buy the brick that matched our house!!!! Maybe I should put a stream in!! Just Kiddng.
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC May 11, 2009 09:41 AM	It is such a drag when in addition to all the other things we have to juggle---we have to add 'engineer' to our other duties. And...if it involves water.... that shakes me up. You haven't said what the builder did HAS NOT fixed the problem and so maybe it has. I think the Permatill will carry the water only as deep as it is tilled into the ground.. if the ground won't absorb below that point..you will still have water migrating to the surface. I think the answer is to drain water (route water) away from your property so that you stop the issue where it originates and not have to worry about dealing with it after the fact. An engineer can maybe help with this --at least advise. Or a landscape contractor (licensed/educated) can maybe give you an hours worth of advice. OR maybe all those drains and contours did the job and you are dealing with this prolonged rain we are having and your issues will be few and far between. You just don't want a septic to be overwhelmed.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) May 11, 2009 02:27 PM	Fortunately, I don't have a septic! Unfortunately,our lot drains at our lowest point, our neighbors water comes in at our highest point. Our high point and low point are at opposite ends of the yard. Meaning the water travels thru the length of our yard. We have a Landscape designer and a landscape contractor, both, think the catch drains, french drains, and contour drainage will be effective. You're right we have had a lot of rain. I might be concerned over a non-existent problem. I just want to get it right while we are working on the hardscape, not after I loose my newly planted trees and shrubs.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) June 03, 2009 09:49 AM	Wow! We've had a lot of rain and my yard is draining like a champ! However, My wet spots have constant moisture even in this heat they are still damp and growing moss. We are going ahead with the permatil, sandy loam, compost and pine fines. I'll let you know how the permatil works. Keep your fingers crossed for me. My neighbor came over for breakfast, I pointed out our problem area. They talked about a french drain, we'll see what happens!
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC June 03, 2009 05:48 PM	It's all coming together! Good for you! And, I hope you end up with a really great and responsible neighbor.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) June 04, 2009 01:38 PM	Beautiful! The rich black compost their rototilling into my red clay is BEAUTIFUL! How the color and texture change the look of my yard, it's amazing. I am sooooo excited to plant. Unfortunately, only a few trees and critical shrubs are going in now. I worry the timing is wrong. I know I should wait until fall. My DH wants to get the trees growing, we need a screen. We need to screen out the area we want to build a patio cover! Our HOA is a bugger, guess we better get on Board! Oh I hate the idea.
50glee Huntersville, NC June 04, 2009 06:23 PM	hope the permatil hasnt been bought yet!! yes permatil can do what they said but it is not the best thing for Carolina Clay. (Imagine once you dump in a bag what it soul be like trying to dig and plant anything!) . . .your shovel continually hitting stones? I use Permatil for those blasted mole/voles that insist on dining on my hosta and other plant roots! some good amendments for our soil is a product called Soil Conditioner. the pine amendment would be good. Mushroom compost is excellent too! Recently Ive found Coir - which Ive found works MUCH better than peat and/or garden soil. Ive found once the temperatures bakes into the 90's the purchased garden soil and peat all get Hardened. causing water to just run off rather than drip inTO the plant site. ah this clay could make a mute talk in extended expletive strings! LOL! We do have our forum too: Carolina Gardening you and your garden concerns are welcome to drop in! the soil groups advises gypsum. Havent tried that one yet.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) June 04, 2009 07:09 PM	Hi 50glee, you're the first one I have read to have used permatil!!! Unfortunately it was tilled into the soil today!!!! Yikes!!! Or will I be saying OOPS??? I do read the Carolina Gardening section but didn't see anything on Permatil. The good news is my 6 little trees and 6 shrubs came today too. Wow, what a difference the third dimension makes. My yard popped to life. I'm thrilled! I'm so happy, i won't come out of the rain! My husband thinks I'm nuts! Have to say, the permatill is like a fine sand, it doesn't seem like it will be too difficult to dig in! Time will tell.
mightyscott Belmont, NC (Zone 7b) June 10, 2009 08:53 AM	Well, it only took a short time to see one small problem with the permatill! The small grains of mulch settle downward leaving the permatill on top!
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC June 10, 2009 01:40 PM	So much for the 'perm' -- it must be PermaTop! Hopefully you see it at the top but it is still firmly fixed all throughout!
gcshari Chapel Hill, NC June 13, 2009 10:28 AM	I'm weighing in against Permatil and peat moss as amendments for Carolina clay. We moved into our new house south of Chapel Hill 13 years ago and faced similar problems with drainage and starting a new garden. From experience- having to re-do and losing time and $$$, to say nothing of the backbreaking labor, do the basics first. Solve the drainage problem first. Amend with compost- leaf mulch from the town landfill or your own compost; both work fine and are cheap. Put in more than you think is enough. Wait until fall to plant. Plant "high". Pick plants that will do well in our summers. Think about an irrigation system. Mulch is a "good news bad news" situation. Helps regulate soil moisture and temperature, but attracts voles. Peat moss cakes in the heat and is detrimental. Permatil didn't work for stopping the voles (what we used it for), was expensive and didn't do anything for soil drainage or nutrition.
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC June 13, 2009 10:58 AM	gcshari You may have read this in some other thread - I try to post it when I can find a thread that gives a good topic match - but since you are in Chapel Hill ---I can't resist. (this isn't about amending the soil however) Since you are working on gardens etc., you may want to consider glass mulch. The landfill sells it for 20 (maybe more now but I bet not more than 25) dollars for a ton. (We have a pickup so it is easy for us to put down a tarp and get the scoops.) It is permanent, (you do need to put down landscape fabric so that it doesn't seep into the soil and disappear after a year or two)... but it is really beautiful when the sun hits it. We have used it for around the trees. When you buy it --it looks sort of grundgy because the glass 'sand' from the crushing process dulls everything. But after you set it down and hose it off ---it sparkles and stays that way. It isn't so tumbled that I would chance walking on it ...there are sharp edges here and there ...but I think with shoes it can even be used for paths --the pieces are the size of pea gravel. The downside is that it is not sorted by color (I would have loved a solid blue for the dry creekbed) but it is very nice nonetheless.

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