Gardening Questions: Plant spacing

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jkehl Rome, GA (Zone 7b) January 19, 2007 02:03 AM	So I have been reading a lot of books on growing vegetables... They all give a distance of how far apart you can put the plants and how far the rows should be apart. Then I read some books on 'square foot' and 'intensive' gardening that say you can put the plants much closer together.Does this mean that I can generally ignore the 'how far the rows should be apart' and only use the 'how far the plants should be apart'? I know traditionally rows were 2-3' apart so that a tractor could drive between the rows for cultivation or spraying but don't the plants also need a certain spacing just to get the light in to them? I especially wonder about this for tall plants. Like tomatoes for instance are planted 1' apart in rows but if the plants were actually 1' apart in all directions it doesn't seem like the plants would get enough light let alone me getting in there to pick tomatoes. And yet growing up in Indiana I saw corn always planted like 8-10" apart in all directions and it did fine.... I'm also confused on shorter plants like onions (grown to full size dried onions). The seed packet says 3-4" apart in rows 12" apart. If you just plant them 3" apart in all directions do they grow to full size? This message was edited Jan 18, 2007 10:06 PM
Horseshoe Efland, NC (Zone 7a) January 19, 2007 02:53 AM	jkehl, the plant spacing will depend not just on the type of veggie but also on your method of growing. Field crops, usually planted in rows, will go by one set of "rules" while raised bed crops can go by another set. (Raised beds will more often than not have deeper and often amended soil and plants can be staggered in a zigzag pattern to allow proper plant spacing; this is also allowable because those beds are often worked by hand as opposed to field crops, which are often worked with machinery (and machinery doesn't understand "zig zag" yet!) :>) The "square foot" method has been shown to work for some folks, for some plants, in certain soils, and the spacing is variable. Personally, I can't see planting a tomato plant in a one foot area unless you are of the mindset that stakes and religiously prunes it to only one trunk. As far as planting tomatoes in a row and only allowing 1 ft between each plant is too close also (even if you prune it); and yes, you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the plants not getting enough light when planted that close. They also wouldn't get the needed air flow around them and that would make them susceptible to molds/mildews and other problems caused by lack of air flow. As for corn, when planted 8-10 or 12 inches apart in the row, it can easily handle it as long as the ground is fertile enough to support those heavy feeders and as long as there is enough room between the rows to allow the pollen to fall onto the corn silks. Shoe. Oh yeh, as for onions, again, growing them 3 inches apart in all directions will work in good rich soil. Personally, I set them out 2 inches apart then as they grow I pull every other one for green onions/table onions and that leave the ones left behind a spacing of 4 inches to grow in thereby letting them grow to full size bulb onions. Ah yessss...it's the best of both worlds! (I gotta have those onions greens as much as I like the bulbs)
drivenbonkers Perth,, ON (Zone 5a) January 19, 2007 01:51 PM	jkehl I used the 'square foot' method of gardening for the first time this past summer, and for me, it's the only way I will veggie garden. With a couple of exceptions, the method worked GREAT! I found that once I had the 'blocks' and paths laid out, the care was minimal. I had a great number of lettuces planted, and they grew to fill in the block, and kept the weeds down. Onions,.radishes, carrots and beets were planted 16 seeds per 1ft block. I never had good results with these seeds using the traditional 'row' method. (Soil sandy/poor) With the block method, I am only amending the block area, not the paths. By walking only on the paths, the soil in the blocks remain light and fluffy! I ate lunch EVERY day from the garden last summer........ The water usage is better conserved too, sprinkle a 1ft block and all the plants are watered within the block, where in a row, you need a considerable quantity of water. For next year, the tomatoes (tall, large indeterminate) will be on their own block, along the front of the greenhouse, leaving the rest of the garden for the other veggies, best suited for the square foot method.
jkehl Rome, GA (Zone 7b) January 19, 2007 08:35 PM	Thanks for the replies. This is all starting to make more sense. I have a tractor but am mostly using it to make raised beds and I'm planning on handling the planting/weed control all by hand since I'm only working about 1/2 an acre. The beds are 5' wide because that's how wide my tractor is. Do you think that if I put 3 rows 2' apart with 1' between plants in the row that they would have enough room? I'm going to use a determinate type for the bed. I have space on a fence I'm going to plant some inderminates in.
drivenbonkers Perth,, ON (Zone 5a) January 20, 2007 01:30 PM	jkehl: there's no harm in trying! For me, gardening is a learning experience. Each year is different (weather, weeds etc)and each year I try something different. (seeds, or different method) It does depend on what you are growing in the 5'wide beds, if you plan to mulch, your irrigation system, soil quality etc. Are you growing for personal use? or a farm gate garden? How much time do you have to care for the garden? There's so many questions/answers that drives this gardening stuff, lol. The book about square foot method does not list potatoes, yet I had a couple of blocks in potatoes (3 rows in each 4x4' block) THIS summer, I plan on at least 6 blocks in potatoes, lol. the planting of the second crop of spuds in early July failed, :( The book also suggests physically marking the blocks, I just eyeballed them....... Just take different ideas and use what works for you and your garden. I put 6 strawberry plants in one 4x4 block with the honeywort, and this summer should have more than enough strawberry plants to have a decent strawberry dessert, with several dozen plants to populate another couple of blocks! I have several pots of rasberries (had to move them last spring) that I may plant in another 4x4 block.... For the first time, this year my carrots, beets and onions actually grew to the proper size! Swiss chard was a first timer in this year's garden and WILL be invited back again next year. The beans and peas toppled the trellises.... I also had several blocks in flowers (zinnias, asters, nastursums, marigolds, honeywort) only because there was no room in the other flower beds, lol. From what I have learned, the row spacing evolved because of commercial farming..... I think there's nothing more beautiful than several kinds of lettuce in all their glory in a 4x4foot block.... Happy Gardening!
jkehl Rome, GA (Zone 7b) January 20, 2007 08:28 PM	Hi Driven, Thanks for the info. I'm creating these beds to sell vegetables at the local farmers market. On some smaller beds I have, I have used some of the square foot techniques/spacing and they are working well for me. I just get confused sometimes applying it to larger beds. With tomatoes for instance, I have a 6' fence about 130' long that I am going to grow tomatoes on. Well square foot gardening says to space them 1' apart along the fence. So I'm planning 130 plants. I think this will work well for me. But then, I was also going to plant a 5'x90' bed with tomatoes and just using the same, 1 plant per 1 square foot I came up with 450 plants and figured that couldn't possibly work. What I was forgetting I think is that they say to do vine crops only on the north side of a bed. So I've been trying to figure out exactly how many tomatoe plants I should put in the bed. Where I'm at now is 135, 3 rows 2 feet across with the plants 2' apart in the rows. They're a determinant type tomato so hopefully won't get too big. The other vegetable that was confusing me was Onions that I want to grow to full size. I planted 100 with the SFG spacing of 3" apart with 16 per square foot but they just look too close together to me so I planted the rest I had 4" apart in rows 6" apart. But as you say, I'll just have to try some things and see how it works out. This is my first year doing this an I'm learning alot. And I agree with you, the experimenting part is half the fun :)
drivenbonkers Perth,, ON (Zone 5a) January 21, 2007 12:42 PM	jkehl, this year I planted 2 indeterminate tomatoe plants (yellow pear) in one 4x4 block, and they took off and crushed the metal trellis and took over the entire block! So, for this year the plan for this year is to put them along the greenhouse, at 2' intervals. I've been interested in the heirloom tomatoes, and will continue the experiment this summer. But it is SO tempting to plop those small transplants shoulder to shoulder, lol!
1gardengram Fayetteville, NC (Zone 8a) January 28, 2007 05:19 AM	Just my two cents worth: When I was living in Hawaii, I found that the Japanese and Filipino families planted their veggies very close together and their gardens were stunning. I asked and was told that you plant everything close together (as you said if they can be 6" in one direction, they can be 6" in every direction, or whatever distance). It's almost like the square foot gardening in a way. They thin unmercifully and eat what they are thinning. Baby leaves taste great and there is more room for the rest of the plants to get bigger, which they then keep thinning. There is little weeding to do and watering is much easier and more economical. I started gardening that way and could not believe the fantastic results. I also had access to wonderful fish parts that I buried along the rows, which was the only fertilizer I ever needed. Maybe try some of your veggies with one system and some with another system until you find what works best for you in your climate and your own smaller microclimates, your time to work outside, etc. Whatever you do, I hope that you have a wonderful crop!!
jkehl Rome, GA (Zone 7b) January 28, 2007 04:03 PM	Thank for for the info gardengram. I find that I'm learning more every day. There are so many varibales to take into account that it gets a bit mind-boggling sometimes. Like for instance I have had good luck this fall/winter spacing plants close together in raised beds. But the plants are all smallish plants like lettuce, carrots and broccoli. It's a whole different ball game when I start planning things like tomatoes and melons for this spring. Also, you mentioned planting fish with your gardens. The raised beds I'm using are a combination of topsoil I had trucked in along with the remanants of the forest floor after I got done clearing the trees from the area. So they're very rich in nutrients. The larger beds where I'm planning on putting the tomatoes are in what was for 25 years someones cleared backyard and just had grass and weeds on it. I've amended it with composted chicken litter but it still is porbably no where near as rich as the smaller beds so it probably won't support a dense planting of vegetables right away. Jeff
1gardengram Fayetteville, NC (Zone 8a) January 28, 2007 05:38 PM	Jeff, You have done a lot of planning and are being careful about what you put where. I don't think you are going to have any problems growing pretty much anything you want to. I would love to see pictures as you progress. Have a great time with it all. Diane

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