Landscaping: We need help choosing ground cover for Zone 4b

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dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada August 29, 2009 06:23 PM	Hi there. We hope someone might take a personal interest in guiding a couple of novices. We're starting new landscaping and we welcome your expertise. We would rather be canoeing, or reading, or even going to the dentist, than gardening! With apologies to all gardening enthusiasts out there, whose help we are soliciting, I had to hoe weeds for 5 cents a row when I was a kid. So to me, gardening and lawncare are "work" and I can't be persuaded otherwise ;-) Our objective is low maintenance, beautiful plants, environmentally friendly solutions, reasonable cost, and in case I forgot to mention it, low maintenance ... - We've just added 3 new retaining walls to reduce the slope and erosion at the front of our home in southwestern New Brunswick, Canada. The walls replace steeply sloping rubble that was impossible to work on. The blocks come from a redi-rock.com dealer and we are delighted! - We are in Zone 4b and our home faces north. The front has no shade but gets very little sun until the early afternoon. - We aren't ready for planting yet ... the following pictures are up to the minute. It's raining so we won't be spreading any topsoil today! - One of the pictures shows all 3 walls. The third wall, at the far right, is on the upper side of our driveway. - The other two walls stop at our property line on the left side of the pictures. The adjoining land, partly shown, is a 30 foot wide strip owned by the town. Town officials have no concerns about changes we've made but they also have no interest in maintaining this narrow property. As upstanding citizens (who, ahem, happen to also have a self-interest in how it affects the curb appeal of our own property), we will be fixing up this town property with topsoil and ground cover. You'll be pleased to know, when it comes to the environment, we "get it". We don't use herbicides and aren't striving for a monoculture bluegrass lawn. But we also have deep prejudices against dandelions, plantain, and burdock when they're on our side of the fence. So our compromise, which seems to be working, is to mix white clover and grass seed when doing lawn repairs. We are getting older, but both of us still work part-time, so we don't want our new landscaping to result in a whole lot of additional lawn to maintain and mow. From what we've been reading, ground cover plants are going to be less work than a traditional lawn. Does everyone agree? We have friends with lots of Boston Ivy "veitchii" (Parthenocissus tricuspidata "veitchii') who have invited us to take as many free cuttings as we want. So we plan to use this for a large portion of our ground cover, especially for that 30 foot strip owned by the Town. It gets mostly favorable comments on the websites we've browsed so far. Does anyone disagree? We aren't planning to use vines that can eventually damage our walls, but are hoping to use other more colorful ground cover and perennials to fill all the areas above and below our new walls. Probably we'll have plants that will spill over our walls from above. We like yellow, so we might use a good amount of yellow alyssum. Other flowering ground covers that have gotten our attention are various colours of creeping phlox, Dragon's blood sedum, October Daphne sedum, blue rug juniper, Prince of Wales juniper, clematis (non-clinging varieties). So, we probably don't even know all the right questions to ask but here are a few for starters. Please feel welcome to jump in with other suggestions or warnings. We've labelled the questions a, b, c, d, etc to hopefully save you a few keystrokes when replying: (a) What's the best way to take cuttings from our friends' Boston Ivy? (b) How far apart should we plant these cuttings? (c) Should we try to plant as much as possible in September or wait till spring? (d) Should we use mulch to control weeds while ground covers are getting started? If so, what type of mulch? And once they are underway, can these plants coexist with no separation between them? We figure any bare spot is just an invitation to a weed ... (e) On a slope, does it make any difference whether you begin planting at the bottom or the top? (f) Do the plants mentioned above seem like they would coexist well? We don't want to make work for ourselves by choosing plants that would choke out other plants. or that don't like the same soil conditions. New Brunswick soil tends to be acidic ... we treat with lime when necessary. (g) What should we do to amend our new topsoil before planting ground cover? We've asked our contractor for the "good stuff" but it may not have a lot of organic material mixed in, and it may have weed seeds - we don't know yet. Should we add lime and fertilizer? Should we get it tested so we know our starting point? (h) Are there other ground cover plants native to our area that we should also consider? We like photos of Prairie Smoke that we've seen on this website, but if it's native to Saskatchewan, perhaps it doesn't belong in New Brunswick ... (i) Should we use certain combinations of plants because some will flower early and some will flower late? (j) What about mixing colours? Should we use Irish moss, or more Boston Ivy, or some other green or white ground cover to separate bright colours? Do some colours clash? Should we avoid using two different plants that are similar colours? (k) Are some ground covers more work or more prone to disease than others? What work will we have to do each year? Thanks in advance to anyone who undertakes to answer some or all of our outrageously long list of questions. View Larger
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada August 29, 2009 06:32 PM	I couldn't figure out how to attach a second photo to our first post. So here it is. View Larger
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 01, 2009 03:20 AM	Good grief man, have you taken your medicine today? Thats a lot of questions!!! ROFL Just hang in there inteligent help will arrive. In the meantime BREATH
smileymom343 Kenmore, NY (Zone 6a) September 01, 2009 06:25 AM	wow. a gardeners delight. i'll let the experts take over.
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 01, 2009 12:26 PM	Boston Ivy: http://landscaping.about.com/od/vineplants1/p/boston_ivy.htm Ground covers: http://landscaping.about.com/od/groundcovervines1/Ground_Cov... http://www.gardenwiseonline.ca/gw/plants/2006/01/02/low-main... Mulch and ground covers: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/368421/best_landsca... weed control: http://www.virtualseeds.com/weedcontrol.html Soil preparation: http://www.flower-gardening-made-easy.com/soil.html Low maintenance perennials for zone 4: http://www.sustainable-gardening.com/perennials/carefree.htm... http://plantsbulbs.suite101.com/article.cfm/perennial_plants... Choosing colors: http://www.home-gardening-tips.com/2009/07/14/home-garden-de... http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1934/ http://www.flower-gardening-made-easy.com/color-in-the-garde... staggering bloom times: http://hubpages.com/hub/Continuously-Blooming-Garden http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1518491/choosing_ga... http://searchwarp.com/swa151644.htm landscape trees: http://www.johnstonplants.com/flwtrees.shtml http://www.canadiangardening.com/plants/trees-and-shrubs/10-... Doug, I have probably not addressed all of your questions, but hope I have at least given you a start. The most important thing I can stress to you is to read before you plant, that way you know how large and well a plant will perform and how it should perform in your area. A lot of native plants are good choices, but know what care they require and how they will fit in with your landscape. Best of luck to you both.
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 01, 2009 02:35 PM	and Doug you can take it to the bank moon knows gardening. Hope you didn't take my comment as an insult I was just funnin.
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 01, 2009 08:09 PM	flowers_delight ... no offence taken ... I know our posting was unusually long and hoped someone would feel sorry for us ... gotta go now ... they bring me my medication with my bedtime snack :-) and to themoonhowl ... thank you for undertaking this wonderful reply. We really appreciate it and will be following every one of your suggested links. Stay tuned everyone. It'll take time to digest all the information you've led us to, and meanwhile we have to prepare some topsoil in addition to our day jobs. But I guarantee we will have more questions. Four inches of rain on Saturday. We spent all day Sunday putting gravel back where we had washouts. I can hardly wait till grass and plants take root so they can hold the hill back in future rainstorms.
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 01, 2009 08:18 PM	You are so welcome Doug. Once you have had a chance to digest all the current info, we will look further into what is going on and how to address any further questions. Have fun with your new garden.
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 01, 2009 10:50 PM	Doug don't let me keep you from that snack for sure lol. You and wife have a lot going on and can feel your anxiety with getting it done before it gets too cold. Really wish you would keep those cold blast there as thats when we get our coldest days when it comes from your direction. The house is beautiful and keep us posted on step by step results with pictures too if ya can. Good Luck
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 04, 2009 05:22 PM	We got our first 3 loads of topsoil today. I feel as limp as a dishrag from shovelling and raking. I suppose this is beginning to sound like a blog. No changes that warrant posting new pictures yet, but thank you for your interest everyone. I guess we were close to Leicester NC last Sept on our way home from the Grand Ole Opry. We stayed in Pigeon Forge, then spent a day in the Smokies and on the beginnings of the Blue Ridge Parkway. Stopped to take photos every 4 minutes so we figured it was going to be a week to get to the other end. We were thrilled to travel over Mt. Pisgah. We also have a Mt. Pisgah here in New Brunswick and the summit was on my dad's farm, but the summit is 990 feet, unlike the taller one in NC. It was exciting to descend from Mt. Pisgah, NC to regular highways, on a road that must have had about 40 switchbacks on it. Wow!
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 04, 2009 05:35 PM	Doug, So glad you were able to visit here. If you are ever this way in fall you will see a site that artists are always trying to capture and people never get tired of looking at. Sounds like things are starting to happen your way and can't wait to see results. Remember to stop and breath lol and take in your acomplishments It will all be worth it in the end. If ya need more advice just scream "MOONHOWL" she will come running and put you back on track. As for me, I don't know a lilly pad from a pecan tree most of the time lol. Good Luck and have fun.
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 04, 2009 06:03 PM	Feel for you Doug. The grunt work is no fun, but is so rewarding down the line when you see folks slowing down to look at your garden/landscape. Don't over tax yourself....slow and steady the course is best, as Flowers says, Breathe....as you are aware, doing the work, as much as you can, yourself means it takes a little longer, but is so very rewarding.I am happy to help however I can, even if it is just to commiserate over tired sore muscles....grin. And so it begins....
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 04, 2009 06:05 PM	Doug I have one suggestion for the bottom retaining wall I think tiger lillys or day lillys would look nice. I think they adapt well to different climates and several folks use them here on banks and slopes surrounded by rock, very pretty indeed. They are low maintenance and not much weeding involved. Google them and see what ya think.
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 05, 2009 07:01 AM	I'll try to pace myself. But but but our growing season is almost over up here. So I'm driven by our worry that we could have more washouts in the spring when the snow melts. We get a lot of runoff from the mountain behind us when snow melts. We're thinking we should put grass everywhere for starters, then plant our ground cover next year. Lots of grunt work to do over the next few days, including watering. But we'll take pressure off ourselves if we can spend the winter planning the ground cover. Tiger lilies are native up here and day lilies are favourites of our local gardeners. We like them both and already have both at the back of our home. We're not sure about anything yet except our goal of a low maintenance end result. There's no more topsoil coming until Tues. and we think we have a helper lined up to work on it while I do my day job. I've got lots to do this weekend though, rearranging what arrived yesterday ...
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 05, 2009 10:00 AM	Thats what happened to us. Have a 45 degree slope in big yard and before grass could establish the rains caused gulleys. I had to have dirt brought in later to fill those gulleys and still have a few small ones that I have decided to use for wild flowers as mowing is impossible there. I'm sure there are ways to deter this but I am drawing a blank other than maybe putting hay down to soak up some of the run off. I'm sure some of the other readers with knowledge of sorts will have other sugguestions keep checking this site for that. Good Luck Doug feel for you but am sure it will all work out in the end.
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 05, 2009 10:53 AM	Good morning Doug. Here is a link to annual winter Rye grass. It would help with your erosion problems over the winter and can be turned under to aid in soil fertility in the spring. (it is an annual so it will not be permanent) http://www.ryegrasses.com/
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 05, 2009 12:49 PM	Good afternoon, themoonhowl, You've got our attention with this suggestion! If we use the annual variety, with the objective of replacing it with one or more types of ground cover next spring. You mentioned turning it under. Is this essential? I like the idea of not disturbing the roots if we don't have to, if it will die off or be overtaken by ground cover. I'm thinking of using the ryegrass on that 30 foot wide strip that I mentioned belongs to the Town. Since we didn't put any of our walls on their property, this would be fairly steep and one of the most likely problem areas for erosion. The rise:run is roughly 1:5 (14 feet of rise over a distance of about 70 feet. Also, a question about posting pictures. Is it proper etiquette to put them on this forum, or is there a more appropriate spot?
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 05, 2009 01:22 PM	Hi Doug. Re turning under, only do that in areas that will be planted with flowering shrubs and perennials. It improves the soil. By definition of its name, annual rye will die back and can just be lightly raked to remove excess. The area that is Town owned, I would fill with a good hardy perennial grass possibly like a zoysia if one is rated for your area. It forms a think carpet and does not require the frequent mowing other grasses do. Here is a link I found on a grass touted for your area. http://www.canadagreenperfectgrass.com/?gclid=CLb4jpX92pwCFc... If you are referring to pictures of your on-going project, then this is the perfect place for them, in this thread, posted just like your others. Pictures of other landscaping projects should have their own thread to prevent confusion. If your pictures are on a different topic all together, then you should, according to the information I have been given, post them on the corresponding forum. You can always make note of new posts in different forums on this thread to keep other readers apprised of your topics. Hope this helps answer your questions. Regards, Jean
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 07, 2009 08:42 AM	Thanks Jean, I couldn't find anything about a zoysia variety that is suited for our zone, but you have us on the right track. I'm going to check into dwarf tall fescues that have the characteristics we need, especially mowing less. Meanwhile we are very concerned about losing our topsoil in steeply sloped areas if we don't get something to take root on top of it before winter. Perhaps our best choice this late in the year is to use sod ... then we will unfortunately be limited to the few varieties that our local sod producers have grown. Unfortunately sod is more costly and more labour intensive too. We are still undecided, but realistically it will be another week before our topsoil is all ready and we don't have a lot of growing time left up here. What we do before winter doesn't dictate what we do in future, but sodding with a typical monoculture lawn would limit our choices wouldn't it? After this holiday weekend, we'll call one local company that is advertising RTF (rhizomatous tall fescue). See http://www.granview.ca/granviewfarms/content/view/139/758/ . It sounds like it might be the best of our choices if we decide that we must go with a nursery grown sod.
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 07, 2009 09:02 AM	Good morning folks, There's not much to report on our slow progress with preparing topsoil, except that my muscle cells and even my fat cells are aching :-) Here's a photo to prove I've been working, but it doesn't show the 80% that still isn't done. The wall you see in the distance is our neighbour's. (Their blocks are a different style and lighter colour, but came from the same manufacturer.) More topsoil arrives tomorrow. I have to go earn my paycheque, so a friend will be here to spread around some of the topsoil and to supervise ... View Larger
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 07, 2009 11:01 AM	Good morning Doug. I looked around a bit to see if I could possibly find some alternatives for you to prevent having to "undo" things in the spring. Below are links to what I found. http://www.erosioncontrolblanket.com/ http://www.geotextile.com/ http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-an-Erosion-Control-Mat-Keeps-S... http://searchwarp.com/swa534378-Using-Erosion-Control-Mattin... I hope this may broaden your options and expand your timetable. Regards, Jean
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 07, 2009 11:22 AM	Nice Doug, I can see happy future plants waving in the breeze. Looking Good!
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 09, 2009 07:11 AM	Good morning Jean, you're amazing! I haven't been near my computer for a couple of days, so I missed any chance to follow up on your suggestions. I ordered 4500 sq ft of sod yesterday morning. But I'm not too disappointed, except that my only choice was 100% bluegrass. The rhizomatous tall fescue isn't available yet. Ah well, I hope to change this by overseeding next year to introduce clover and other grasses before the weeds start to compete, in the areas that I want to keep a lawn, and I still have this idea of planting Boston ivy and letting it overtake the new lawn on the Town property. Thank you again. You have spent more time on using search engines for alternative solutions for our project than I have! I really appreciate this.
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 09, 2009 08:26 AM	You are quite welcome Doug. I have very fast fingers....grin. Actually, I just figured out the key word code and it makes it go very quickly. I personally like to know what my options are on any project, so feel when someone asks, they should have that info too.... Overseeding should work well and boston Ivy is a tough plant, should hold up nicely...I understand it shears well so maintainence should be pretty matter of fact. Keep us posted as you progress, looking forward to seeing your lovely project as it moves to completion. Best Regards, Jean
Grantman31 West Palm Beach, FL September 14, 2009 04:10 PM	The stone on your retention walls is absolutely beautiful. I'll enjoy reading your updates as you progress.
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 17, 2009 07:28 AM	Thank you Grantman, The stone is a concrete product from a local Redi-Rock dealer. Each block weighs 1740 lbs and is 46"W by 18"H by 28"D. The engineers thought of everything. The redi-rock.com website shows more details as well as lots of pictures. They even use multiple concrete forms so that different blocks have different faces, for a more random pattern. The blocks fit together like Lego, with knobs on the tops and grooves on the bottom. A contractor used an excavator to prepare the yard and to lift the blocks into place. I drove him crazy with my meticulous details but I'm glad I did. We used 7 different types of blocks, not to mention the different faces, so I suppose there were actually more than 25 different blocks, and 98 blocks in all. I spray painted letters on the backsides of the blocks before we started to make it easy for us to identify them when placing them. I planned the layout for the walls myself, but had to make changes on the fly since my estimates of how much the rubble in our yard sloped weren't always accurate. It all worked out, partly due to good luck. I've been busy putting down sod and keeping it watered, with cool temperatures fast approaching. I sure don't mind taking breaks to talk to neighbours who stop to compliment us ... when you see the "before" pictures you'll understand ... and we haven't even started gardening yet! I hope to post some before and after pictures this weekend.
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 17, 2009 04:30 PM	Good work Doug, sounds like the master plan is coming to life. Am excited to see pictures. Your attention to detail is the key to a well thought out design.Congrats on the hard work and time spent in making a spectacular display to enjoy for years to come.
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 18, 2009 06:37 PM	Good evening folks. Here are some before and after pictures. First the before. We had to do something. We had rubble, goldenrod, colts foot, and a steep bank below our driveway. We had a 45 degree bank above the driveway that would wash out during rainstorms and spring runoffs from snow melting. It was too steep to work on so weeds were rampant here too. View Larger
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 18, 2009 06:40 PM	So here's the first "after" picture, looking up the street. View Larger
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 18, 2009 07:10 PM	... and here's a photo looking down the street. Our neighbours are a friendly lot, and all stop to say they are amazed at how much usable space our walls have created. Now that we've grassed everything, we can spend the winter planning our plantings. It's like having a blank canvas and we hope artists among you will help us with the planning. The only plants so far are periwinkle. You can just barely see them, at the upper end of the lowest wall. Many links have been suggested above that we haven't looked at yet. Angie loves yellow. We are imagining flowering perennial groundcover that is low maintenance. There are some steep places in our lawn at the ends of our walls that would be difficult to mow. So we want to probably plant the same thing at each one. Perhaps rose bushes, or juniper, or dwarf pine shrubs? All suggestions are very welcome and very appreciated! Thanks to everyone who has already sent suggestions or compliments. Doug and Angie View Larger
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 18, 2009 08:17 PM	Doug, Angie, that looks fabulous. The sod is settling in nicely. Know you are excited about the next phase. If it turns out half as nice as this phase did it will be beautiful. Some low growing junipers would handle those steep places quite well. Did I send you the link for the miniature conifers? You have a lot to be proud of there. Jean/Moon
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 21, 2009 12:44 AM	Doug and Angie your hard work is paying off, its georgous! Thanks for keeping us updated. The A frame looks great with the landscape you've chosen. Keep the pictures coming love to see a project to completion. I'm sweatin and haven't even helped lol
Grantman31 West Palm Beach, FL September 21, 2009 02:47 PM	Wow absolutely amazing. It looks like something out of the old English countryside...splendid!
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 21, 2009 05:23 PM	Doug, another great plant for softening an edge, or spilling over a wall is Rosemary Officinalis prostratus. It is hardy to may degrees below zero and is edible, great for smoking meats and makes a fire smell wonderful in small amounts. http://www.gardening.eu/plants/Aromatic-plants/Rosmarinus-of...
dougmcquinn Grand Bay-Westfield, NB Canada September 22, 2009 06:45 PM	Thanks everyone and Jean/Moon in particular, We are faithfully watering our new lawn and looking forward to following up many of the suggestions and links. Right now our focus has switched to preparations for winter, and a couple of small trips in the near future to see some fall colours in New England and here in the Maritime provinces. Does anyone have a favorite computer program to recommend for planning our gardens? We've read reviews and the contradictory reviews leave us bewildered. We looked briefly at Google Sketch-It, and thought it seemed like a steep learning curve. Ideally, since we will use a lot of flowering plants, we would like something that could help us visualize our plants at various stages, as some pass their best days and others come into bloom later. Maybe we have to do 2 or 3 versions of our design to see this?
themoonhowl Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a) September 22, 2009 07:07 PM	Here is a basic design aid from Better Homes and Gardens; http://www.bhg.com/gardening/landscaping-projects/landscape-... a link reviewing software: http://landscaping-software-review.toptenreviews.com/ 3-d software programs (ranging in price from $60 to $250) http://www.ideaspectrum.com/ a link to shareware programs http://www.sharewareconnection.com/titles/landscape.htm Hope these give you a starting point. Jean/Moon
flowers_delight Leicester, NC (Zone 8a) September 23, 2009 10:40 AM	Doug as stated I'm no expert but do realize the importance of zone (whether or not plants will grow in your region), size (knowing how to place them for visual clarity, and blooming times and colors (don't want too many of same in one location unless it is a bed specifically for that particular plant). So pick out your favorites and narrow it down to space and go for it. Happy Planting my new friends.

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